Max Berlijn
 ·  19 september 2025  22:33, gewijzigd 19 september 2025  22:33

Je dacht aan....juv Roodkeel?

Fred Visscher
 ·  19 september 2025  22:45, gewijzigd 19 september 2025  22:45

Nee Grijze (in het veld…).

Maarten Wielstra
 ·  20 september 2025  02:41, gewijzigd 20 september 2025  02:57

Net een beetje te contrastrijk op kruin en bovendelen voor een Grijze, foute snavel, webloos pootje, zwartachtige tertials...en wat nog meer Fred? Hoe zit dat eigenlijk met de verhouding staart- vs vleugelpunt? In hoeverre varieert dat? Deze heeft wel korte vleugels (of lange staart) lijkt het...

Fred Visscher
 ·  20 september 2025  08:26, gewijzigd 20 september 2025  08:26

Ja achteraf is alles makkelijker Maarten… Web-loos pootje werd pas thuis duidelijk na veel foto’s doorspitten en snavellengte kan nog steeds voor vrouw Grijze.. Verder dus de grijze flank, bijna geen V op de mantel te bekennen en dan idd die staart die voorbij de vleugels steekt (bij de andere tientallen Kleintjes niet…), dus een heel spannend beest zo in het veld!

Maarten Wielstra
 ·  20 september 2025  09:02, gewijzigd 20 september 2025  09:03

Snap ik Fred! Ik was in het veld waarschijnlijk huilend naar mijn mammie gerend! Wat bedoel je overigens met grijze flank?

Andreas Noeske
 ·  20 september 2025  10:49, gewijzigd 20 september 2025  14:26

@ Fred, congratulations to you for these excellent record shots and warning to claim having photographic evidence of foot-webbing on distant birds:

“with mud-webbing“ and without palmations

Not only is this bird looking interesting but also Max's idea should not completely dismissed. As the toes are completely lacking any palmations Red-necked Stint is a serious option. Even if it is just a Little Stint in the end it is worth checking some other photographs:

Red-necked Stint, Semipalmated Sandpiper, Little Stint, 't Zand Little Stint

What is actually still puzzling me is the seeming lack of solidly blackish-centred tips of lower scapulars. Anyway another very instructive stint after the OVP “grijze“ Kleine Strandloper.

Photo-essay stints and peeps by Pat Lonergan

Red-necked Stint one, two, three, four in September

Little Stint one in September and two in August

Semipalmated Sandpiper one and two in August

't Zand Little Stint in September

Fred Visscher
 ·  20 september 2025  13:45, gewijzigd 20 september 2025  13:45

Andreas, thanks for your input..!

Fred Visscher
 ·  20 september 2025  15:29, gewijzigd 20 september 2025  15:29

Andreas, would you mind taking a look at this? It's listed under Dunlin, but it's not at all what I saw in it at the time... The leg color is green/yellow, the bird is incredibly small, and I can't identify with Dunlin's shape either...

Peter de Knijff
 ·  20 september 2025  15:43, gewijzigd 20 september 2025  15:43

Mijn eerste indruk is mogelijk arctica, maar die pootkleur is beslist atypisch voor een bontje.

Andreas Noeske
 ·  20 september 2025  17:27, gewijzigd 20 september 2025  17:28

Fred, you put me under pressure and keep me my head scratching. At first glance it looks like a different species in comparison with the Dunlin, to me almost stint-like. I think Peter's idea of arctica is not bad. When I looked through eBird I found these photos, where the birds are labelled as arctica and also look almost like a stint and therefore quite different from the Dunlins I have seen so far:

Dunlin Calidris alpina arctica:

Caa1, Caa2, Caa3, Caa4, Caa5, Caa6

Hope this helps, but I have never seen arctica myself.

Fred Visscher
 ·  20 september 2025  17:59, gewijzigd 20 september 2025  17:59

Thank you, Andreas and Peter. Looking at this, Andreas, I'm actually quite convinced, based on the shape, that it should be Arctica.

Andreas Noeske
 ·  21 september 2025  10:42, gewijzigd 21 september 2025  10:45

DUNLIN Calidris alpina arctica

“Greenland Dunlin C. a. arctica (Spain, June 2022) (c) Guillermo Rodríguez. A particularly grey individual, note also the classic “white band” just above the belly patch formed by the absence of breast spotting. Imagine that we erase the dark belly patch from this image – wouldn´t it look a bit like a Western/Semipalmated Sandpiper Calidris pusilla/mauri?“

“(Presumed) Southern Dunlin C.a.schinzii (Spain, May 2022) (c) Guillermo Rodríguez. Not every small Dunlin is a Greenland Dunlin – this bird, likely a male, looks small and definitely short-billed. However, it shows typical schinzii upperpars, large belly patch and compact structure.“

cited from Unprecedented spring arrival of Greenland Dunlin ssp. arctica to Northern Spain and a first approach to its identification – a MUST-READ for every birder who wants to identify arctica in the field.

ID aspect bill length:

“As in many calidrids, female Dunlins have longer bills and wings than males. There is also a difference in bill length between populations and arctica has a smaller bill than schinzii, resulting in much overlap in bill length between female arctica and male schinzii.“

According to measurements in the “German Handbook“ bill length of male arctica: 24,0 – 27,6 mm; overlap between male schinzii (western Finland): 24,0 – 30,0 mm; female arctica: 27,0 – 31,2 mm; female schinzii (UdSSR): 26,9 – 36,3 mm

“C. a. arctica has been documented for the first time in The Netherlands during this study. In 1984 and 1985 respectively five and two adults were captured.“ in Meininger & van Swelm 1989: 68.

Apparently in Germany there are so far no records at all. In the "German Handbook" from 1975 only alpina and schinzii are dealt with in detail, although arctica is also mentioned. Even 43 years later still only alpina and schinzii are listed in the Artenliste der Vögel Deutschlands (2018), so apparently no records of arctica in Germany as yet.

Peter de Knijff
 ·  21 september 2025  13:34, gewijzigd 21 september 2025  13:34

More useful information can be found in Meinte Engelmoer’s PhD thesis. Based on the vast amount of wader measurements that he published earlier together with Cees Roselaar, he presents evidence for the presence of four different Dunlin taxa: arctica, schinzii, alpina and centralis in the Dutch Wadden Sea. This would suggest that it is likely that they also occur in the German part of the Wadden Sea. Furthermore, in terms of measurements, mean culmen length and mean tarsus length are smaller in arcitca compared with schinzii  but there is a large overlap between these two taxa.

Wim Wiegant
 ·  21 september 2025  21:06, gewijzigd 21 september 2025  21:09

Op 25 mei 1996 zag ik op het Wagejot op Texel een exemplaar van arctica, die onwijs afwijkend was van de rest van de Bonte Strandlopers - kleiner, fletser, met véél kortere snavel - maar die werd afgewezen omdat de ondersoort niet valide was, als ik me niet vergis...

Andreas Noeske
 ·  22 september 2025  10:32, gewijzigd 22 september 2025  10:32

"Many of the birds I saw were strikingly small and short billed - some almost stint like in appearance. … I suspect that these were of the race arctica" …

"Below are a couple of images of the 'odd' Dunlin that was called a Baird's, White-rumped, Western Sand and even a hybrid over a period of 12 hours! It's very small size and pale complexion can be noted from the following photographs. It could be picked out each time from the 1000+ small waders present. I now think it's a small (possible runt) juvenile arctica Dunlin." cited from Schinzii vs. arctica vs. alpina - Dunlins

Obviously arctica Dunlins can and do look very different from the "normal" Dunlins seen in the Dutch Wadden Sea, sometimes almost being reminiscent of Semipalmated, Western or even Baird's Sandpiper. According to Table 40 in Engelmoer (2008) there are estimated 5.900 arctica Dunlins in the Dutch Wadden Sea in July/August and 3.400 in September/October. Doesn't this mean that the whole Dutch birders community is overlooking 100s and 1000s of arctica Dunlins with a stint like jizz year after year during the last decades, at least from the first record in 1984 onwards? I can't really imagine this! Can it be that arctica is actually much rarer than Engelmoer's results suggest, perhaps just tens instead of thousands? A bizarre situation. But my idea might be wrong as I am perhaps not up-to-date and do not have enough information.

arctica Dunlins: Caa7, Caa8, Caa9, Caa10, Caa11, Caa12, Caa13, Caa14, Caa15

Peter de Knijff
 ·  22 september 2025  13:48, gewijzigd 22 september 2025  13:48

Andreas, please keep in mind that most potential Dutch arctica's are very likely hidden among the flocks of many thousands Dunlins representing the three more common taxa. These flocks can rarely be scanned in detail. Furthermore, very few birders give Dunlins a more thorough second look and systematically take pictures. And, finally, there is no detailed and well illustrated identification paper dealing with all Dunlin taxa in Spring/Summer plumage and Autumn/Winter plumage.

Andreas Noeske
 ·  22 september 2025  15:40, gewijzigd 22 september 2025  15:52

Peter, I agree. So arctica Dunlin could be a "new" challenge for years to come if nothing else is to do;-)

Nils van Duivendijk
 ·  22 september 2025  19:23, gewijzigd 22 september 2025  19:23

I have been observing Dunlins here on the North Holland wadden area for some time now, and I am therefore rather surprised by the numbers that Engelmoer apparently indicates for arctica in the Dutch wadden area. I have never seen a good arctica, even though I can see large numbers of Dunlins at good range at Den Oever and Balgzand for example.

Last April, I saw for the first time large numbers of, which I think were perfect arctica, in Dhakla, Western Sahara, mixed with a few nominate alpina. They were so different that I really felt I was looking at two different species. This reinforced my belief that arctica must be at least (very) scarce in the Netherlands.

Andreas rightly refers (21 Sept 10.42) to the webarticle by Subalpinebirding, so there is definitely progress in this area, Peter!

Peter de Knijff
 ·  22 september 2025  19:52, gewijzigd 22 september 2025  19:52

Keep in mind that Engelmoer's data refer birds that were caught between (roughly) 1970 and 1990 and were previously (partly) already discussed by Boere (Ardea 1976; 64 (3-4) : 210 - 291).

Andreas Noeske
 ·  23 september 2025  11:24, gewijzigd 23 september 2025  11:24

Additional information to Nils' own experience (22 September 2025 19:23): I saw for the first time large numbers of, which I think were perfect arctica ... They were so different that I really felt I was looking at two different species.

“At Hoylake, on the west coast of the UK, the schinzii and arctica race Dunlins then come through during April and May on their way from Africa to Iceland and Greenland. With their small size, short bills and relatively dull summer plumage these schinzii and arctica birds are easy enough for the experienced Dunlin watcher to distinguish from the bigger and brighter alpina.“

East Siberian sakhalina Dunlins also in the (Dutch) Wadden Sea?

“But then something strange happens which doesn't seem to be recognised in any paper or book I've read - from mid to late May we see the arrival of big and bright Dunlin on the beach at Hoylake looking very much like alpina, or even centralis, and I'll call them Siberian as surely that's what they must be. These aren't just a few birds but several thousands and they often outnumber the schinzii and arctica already present. Intriguingly, among these flocks we always get a few really big Dunlin looking very like they are Beringian (sakhalina race?) - just like the 'Siberian' birds mentioned by Hans Meltofte [The Northern Dunlin Puzzle]. Considering no Beringian Dunlin has ever been proven to occur in the UK this is remarkable, they are never very numerous but a search through the flocks always reveals one or two, so they are scarce but regular, not just rare vagrants. Below are some photos of these Beringian type Dunlin taken on Hoylake shore over the years by Jane Turner - as Jane says if you were on the coast of the Bering Strait you wouldn't think twice about these Dunlins being in the right place. Whether these really are Beringian or not can only be confirmed by catching some, sampling for DNA and fitting a tacking device, that would certainly be interesting!“ both quotations from Dee Estuary Birding, December 2020 Newsletter: Dunlin - Rings, Races and Genes, by Richard Smith